Interview about "Black Hannah" Johnson with descendants of Zaggel family, transcript (2019-10-12).htm

Interview about "Black Hannah" Johnson with descendants of Zaggel family, transcript (2019-10-12).htm

In October 2019, descendants of the Zaggel family, Marie A. Sommer and Roberta, met with me at Sweeney Cemetery to share their family’s long-held oral traditions about Hannah Johnson. As we walked through the cemetery, they recounted stories that had been passed down through generations of the family about “Black Hannah,” her life, and her connection to the Zaggel farm and surrounding area. They also pointed out the grave long believed within the family to be Hannah’s burial place. The conversation was recorded on October 12, 2019, preserving an important example of how Hannah’s story survived in local family memory long after her death.

Marie A. Sommer

...Fred and Catherine Zaggel. Now they would have...Fred would have been involved. Around the time of Hannah, that they would have had the original farm.

NT HISTORY

Okay. And this is the this is the Sommer plot here?

Marie A. Sommer

Yes. Because these were the...this family got together, and that's how we got the Sommers.

NT HISTORY

Okay.

Marie A. Sommer

And that was my husband's great great grandparents right here. And these are also my great great grandparents. So we have a double knowing of what went on, through family.

NT HISTORY

Right.

Marie A. Sommer

[Looking around cemetery] I didn't realize how bad this place is. You know, the the stones that show ...I don’t even see the names on them anymore hardly.

NT HISTORY

Yeah, there's a lot. I noticed last time I was here. That's why I sort of despaired at finding the actual Hannah Johnson site. Because there were so many gravestones that...

Marie A. Sommer

She’s under “Hannah Haines.” Not Johnson. [Looking around cemetery again] Seemed so huge when we were kids. Come all the time to [the] memorial and they would clean around everything in. Our uncles and aunts would talk about this stuff, you know, as we grew up...Nobody does it anymore.

Marie A. Sommer

Which was also family, too, “The Stags.” They come in with the documents that I mentioned that they're. They're all together.

NT HISTORY

Oh, wow.

Marie A. Sommer

And then this is the Zaggel plot. These would come from the original Zaggels you saw when we came in with the old married and with Charlotte and Charles. Archibald and John. And there's Hannah Haines.

NT HISTORY

Awesome. So what family stories do you have of of Hannah that you were that you recall?

Marie A. Sommer

Hannah stayed on the Zaggels’ farm with these relatives. But the original one I showed you, it was with the Sommer family, and she just lived there. Part of the family. She had her own little...She sold herbs you know, medicinal. That's what they used in those days.

NT HISTORY

Yeah. And there was some sort of sulfur well, on the property, too. According to some of the...

Marie A. Sommer

I have a sulfur well. Yes I do. And they're a pain in the neck. Everybody had sulfur wells. That was nothing unusual. Okay. The only thing is, is with our place in Ellicottville, we have a system on it so that you don't smell it. And it doesn't make the tubs yellow, but otherwise, it's just. It's just an older and older place. It makes everything yellow.

NT HISTORY

So you mentioned about--was it you online who said that people wouldn't talk to the family?

Marie A. Sommer

No, no.

NT HISTORY

Did you say you had photos?

Marie A. Sommer

I have...you had the photo of the Indian chief that came down for the chowder. So that was a reservation on the other side, Sweeney Street and just past where the Zaggel farm was. You've heard of the curve? Oh.

NT HISTORY

The “Zaggel curve”?

Marie A. Sommer

Yeah. On Sweeney Street. By the projects where the boat launch thing is there. There's a curve.

NT HISTORY

The curve. Okay. And it was just identified as such because that was property.

NT HISTORY

Any other Hannah recollections?

Marie A. Sommer

Other than she was a great lady and she sold plants, herbs and for medicine. And that was it.

NT HISTORY

Now, when you were growing up, did you remember hearing the stories of the woods were haunted people?

Marie A. Sommer

No, no, I heard that... I'm 78 years old. Well, we grew up with our uncles that talked about Hannah Haines. And it was usually when we come here and do the, the cemetery and but no, there was never anything like that. And they grew up with her.

NT HISTORY

So where was this, this property? You say the Zaggel bend by Sweeney or off of Sweeney. That's what you're talking about, that if you...

Marie A. Sommer

Look at it, you looked at the, the maps in the beginning. They owned from Payne Avenue, from Sweeney Street, backing up into almost back to the boulevard because the reservation was at that end. And then eventually, you know, with her down. But their their farm was across the street with the canal. Of course, that was just a path that at that time it was just a path. It wasn't really a road. And they had their farm right there by Zaggel’s curve. And it was there and that's where Hannah lived.

NT HISTORY

Yeah. I haven't seen any maps yet with the--I mean, I've only seen a few maps. I haven't seen any with what you had some with the, with the Zaggel name on them I can actually....

Marie A. Sommer

I, I saw them, I saw a map of his five years ago or whatever. The new Tops in Tonawanda by the police station. When I was checking out and came around. There was a map right there and it had Zaggel’s Curve. And that was the first time I ever seen a map with it on.

NT HISTORY

Oh, cool I’ll have to check. It gives me my only reason so far for going to that Tops in Tonawanda. Awesome. I'll check.

Marie A. Sommer

And they called her old Black Hannah because there was never blacks in this area, so she was really an exceptional person because of the color of her skin, but she never really mingled other than they came through to sell the plants in that. And all they would if she waited for her husband to come. Yeah, he came through later, and uncle Jerry pointed this way and says that he's buried by the fence. But I never found out. And now I'm talking 50 years ago.

Roberta

They should know what’s buried there.

NT HISTORY

Yeah.

Marie A. Sommer

This area in the middle over there, close to some stones there. That was Potters Field. There wasn't anything there because that's where you put the people that didn't have money and that's where they were all buried. The rest of them, as you can see, they're all families.

Marie A. Sommer

They owned the land across the street. Yeah, they owned on the canal and then across the street, because that's where they had houses built for the ones that got married. Yeah, because grandma talked about that. Yep. Yeah. Lucy. Lucy Zaggel was. Her house was there? Yeah, but, you know, she was just a nice lady that stayed there. She was really too old to go on with the rest of the group. So she stayed there with our great, great, great great grandparents.

NT HISTORY

Okay.

Marie A. Sommer

But all this other stuff is...this happened about, was it 20 years ago when Zellner started with the historical society? And I have the, the, the clipping from the paper. It has all this stuff then, and I called and we went to the meeting. Yeah. Well they wanted to make--which is fun--it's Halloween time and they do this every so many years. When they think all the Zaggels are dead! Because there isn't a Zaggel that lives here anymore. You know, other than... we were Zaggels but not anymore. You know, but they do it every so many years. Somebody does another story. And we've gone through this. How many times? Yeah. My sister, I think you talked to Brenda on Facebook.

NT HISTORY

What's her last name?

Marie A. Sommer

Flateau.

Roberta

Yes.

NT HISTORY

Okay.

Marie A. Sommer

Remember you said that that was her maiden name?

Roberta

That's her married name.

Marie A. Sommer

Johnson. This is a married name. Okay. But you could see she had to be very special to grandpa to put her in the family, black.

NT HISTORY

Right. I should get a photo on here, too.

Marie A. Sommer

You actually saw the grave.

Roberta

Yeah.

Marie A. Sommer

Because the other one says nope. Other one said that, you know, it was a story about it. But there's the grave. And this is a story!

NT HISTORY

Right. Well, you know, the, a legend isn't necessarily a fiction. You know, a legend just means something that's told among people. And most legends have some historical basis.

Marie A. Sommer

I think it's kind of nice to remember. Absolutely. They come here during the Underground Underground Railroad she was involved in. And then her husband did come through later, but, but as far as all that other stuff that happened. But it, it's, it's good to have Halloween stuff. Nothing.

NT HISTORY

Yeah. I'm not much of a super naturalist myself. I don't really believe in ghosts flitting around, but the first time I encountered the story was on the North Tonawanda website, the official website in 2007, and city historian Daniel Bille or Bill, I'm not sure how you say it at that point had like a little tombstone, a little "The Legend of Hannah Johnson" [epitaph] and had, like “the children run faster through the woods. They hear a raven cry.” You know, it's all that sort of stuff. You haven't been personally haunted by Hannah?

Marie A. Sommer

[Laughs] No. Neither were my uncles or my dad. Didn't they all remember the stories of her? But you know that she lived there was more. More or less like a nanny, you know? That's basically what it was all like back then. And she had to be very special for them to keep her, you know, and then give her a place. Right. And so the Potters field, you know.

NT HISTORY

That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much for...

Marie A. Sommer

The city of North Tonawanda was so divided into streets, where you had your Italians, you had your Germans, you had your Polish. It was, it was, you know, and they actually had a whistle when we were kids that blew that if there was a Black person in the area, they had to leave. I didn't see one until I went to community college, which opened in 1960. We never missed and it was my first. This is where we were, we never knew any different. We were never raised to dislike anybody. We weren’t allowed to go in the Polish church, just, you know, we were Italians and we can't we couldn't go in the Polish side, you know, you didn't leave your little... Well, my grandmother, when she came from Italy as she, she said that she wasn't going to live in an Italian section. She was an American and raised her children to be Americans. And she wouldn't let us speak Italian at the house. No other grandpa talked with us. Yeah, I could understand it, but they wanted us to speak English.

Marie A. Sommer

Well, we just wanted to tell you that what we were raised with, you know, and.

NT HISTORY

I appreciate it. That's great. There's a lot of mystery around it, and details are extremely scarce.

Marie A. Sommer

Yeah, well, it's given, like the reservation where the Zaggels lived... Oh yeah. But that's, besides where they would have chowder. It's this time of year when the gardens were already...and they'd have the chowder there. And we have the picture with the Indian chief that came for the chowder and they would come down, you know...I still have the pot.

NT HISTORY

Oh that's great.

Marie A. Sommer

Yeah. Still have the chowder pot.

NT HISTORY

Do you mind if I get a photo of you, too?

Marie A. Sommer

No, no.

NT HISTORY

You don't mind?

Marie A. Sommer

No, I don't want.

NT HISTORY

Everybody's camera shy. It's not going to steal your soul. You're not superstitious?

Marie A. Sommer

No no no no no no no picture taken. No, I, I do not.

Lainie

I believe that I don't have a soul to steal.

Marie A. Sommer

Oh, yes you do, my friend. Yes you do.

Marie A. Sommer

It was a small community back then. So it's like, I'm married to my cousin, you know, because your last name? Sommer. Yeah. And we have the same great great grandparents, right? But I didn't realize how bad this place has gotten. I brought the grandkids here not too long ago, but it's been a while that I didn't realize how rough the the stones have become.

NT HISTORY

Yeah. Is there is there like, a volunteer agency that comes out here ever to do any cleaning or?

Marie A. Sommer

I know the city of Tonawanda they have a group that's doing it, but when I see this. So sad, just so sad, and there's so much history here, there's so much history. It's like Frederick, he was in the Civil War that I showed you the first stone. He he was at Gettysburg with Lincoln may have his sword and everything from it.

NT HISTORY

Oh, wow. Yeah, I know Payne raised a regiment that was involved in the Civil War.

Marie A. Sommer

Yeah, this is just the flag, Sommer. He was the one that was in the Civil War.

NT HISTORY

Great.

Marie A. Sommer

And I was telling him before you came, this was the original. The original Zaggels. Right here. Catherine and Fred. My mother. She's got a map.

NT HISTORY

Yeah. I'd love to see if you have any any map or anything that helps me delineate the boundaries and figure out where exactly everything was would be extremely helpful.

NT HISTORY

Well, thanks so much. Very nice to meet you.

Marie A. Sommer

Well, I'm glad you heard us out.

NT HISTORY

Yeah. No. That's awesome.

Marie A. Sommer

Anything can continue your stories, but I want you to know that she was just a very nice lady that grew herbs.

NT HISTORY

Yeah.

Marie A. Sommer

In medicine, you know, that was. That was. Yeah. Well, that was all the medicine.

NT HISTORY

And that is part of the story that I read too, is that she had, you know, herbs and medicinal plants and that she actually and that for a while there was one of the accounts, there was a doctor that lived on the same property. Doctor. John. Fonner.

Marie A. Sommer

They said Locke last time he's over there.

NT HISTORY

Or Doctor Locke. No, you're right, Doctor Locke.

Marie A. Sommer

That was another story.

NT HISTORY

Yeah, that's another story. Well, and there are, you know, in defense of that story, there are maps from the 1860s with his name on them and with the their cabin with the word Johnson under it. So that's a story that's got a little bit of, you know, but I'd love to see, you know, some, some documentary evi--.

Marie A. Sommer

Yeah. Well, we won't be around much longer than straighten people out a little bit, you know.

NT HISTORY

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate you doing it for me here today.

Marie A. Sommer

Yeah, well, at least you know where the stone is.

NT HISTORY

Yes.

Marie A. Sommer

You know where she's buried? Yeah, that's that's a plus.

NT HISTORY

That's great. Real pleasure to meet you.

Marie A. Sommer

Same here.

NT HISTORY

Very nice to meet you. Thank you.

In 1882 Zaggel receives 17 acres in Lot 14 from Elizabteh Betts (form Sturgis?) recorded in 168 p 94. Same year two lots from William Sturgess

2019-10-12